Speaker 0 00:00:00 At Vena Robotics, we provide the forklift drivers that you can't hire.
Speaker 2 00:00:11 Hello everyone, and welcome to the Robot Industry Podcast. We're glad you're here. And thank you for subscribing. I am Jim Beretta, and our guest for this podcast edition is Daniel Theobald. And Daniel is the Chief Innovation Officer and founder of VNA Robotics, flexible, intelligent material handling automation company. Daniel has decades of experience leading research scientists and teams of engineers in developing cutting edge technology. He has 67 issued patents and more than 30 patents pending. Daniel has been on the forefront of robotics for more than 20 years, working closely with darpa, the d o d nasa, N I H U S D A, and many others to advance the use of robots and AI software to improve supply chain automation. In addition to founding vector robotics, Daniel also co-founded Mass Robotics, a non-profit dedicated to the global advancement of, in the robotics industry. Daniel's dedicated the idea that technology can be used to empower people worldwide to live more fulfilling lives. Hey, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 0 00:01:18 Hey, thank you so much. It's great to be here.
Speaker 2 00:01:20 Um, let's talk about what's going on in the industry from a high level at vna. Again, we know what VNA does, but what are some of those trends?
Speaker 0 00:01:28 Well, you know, it's interesting because a few years ago, um, this idea of using autonomous, uh, systems in warehouses was sort of revolutionary, You know, crazy idea that, um, you know, few had actually tried. And what we're seeing now, of course, is that there's a realization that the industry cannot survive without it. It's, it's not some cool, you know, futuristic thing. It's, it's vital to the survival and growth of the industry.
Speaker 2 00:01:56 So what does Avena robot look like?
Speaker 0 00:01:58 Well, it largely looks like a normal forklift or, or, um, tow tractor, um, as, as they're called, uh, in warehouses. Um, many materials are moved around on pallets. You know, a pallet can be made of wood or plastic. Most people have seen a pallet. Um, it's kind of the way that the economy moves things, uh, you know, from the time they're manufactured all the way to, um, uh, eventually ending up on somebody's doorstep, Stuff has to move. It needs to be moved around. And, and pallets sort of became a defacto industry standard for how things are moved. A forklift is a machine specifically designed to move those pallets efficiently. Um, and there's a whole bunch of different kinds of, of, uh, forklifts. Um, but our products look like standard forklifts, except the one curious thing is they move without a human driver operating them. Um, they're, they're smart enough to get from point A to point B reliably and safely. That, uh, you know, really is, uh, filling a big gap in the industry right now, because it is incredibly difficult to find forklift operators, um, like many roles.
Speaker 2 00:03:12 And tell us a little bit about that selling forklift robots to manufacturing. Is this a hard thing now, or is it, is there still a big cultural challenge, or what's happening that way?
Speaker 0 00:03:22 Well, it's evolving very quickly. Um, you know, because of this increased demand from the, um, you know, just what's going on in the labor markets in the industry, um, pretty much everybody realizes that they have to automate now. And so, um, we're all in this learning curve of how to adopt, um, the technology in the most efficient way. So, um, people are learning very quickly. Uh, you have a mix of, you know, sort of, I'd say, um, people who have been working in the industry for many, many years, and, you know, this idea of bringing in technology is, is kind of a new thing. But now you've got a lot of people, um, you know, who are just starting their careers and are, are really, um, you know, grew up with technology, um, entering the industry as well. So it's, it's a mix, but I I think the adoption now is very strong because it's inevitable, right? People realize it's inevitable, and, um, and they realize that they have to do it in order to have their business be competitive in this new, uh, global economy.
Speaker 2 00:04:32 So tell us a little bit about Mass Robotics and what your role is there.
Speaker 0 00:04:38 Yeah, it's, um, really fun to see how mass robotics has come about and evolved. Uh, when I founded Vector Robotics many years ago, um, I, I founded it on this concept that people ultimately are what matters. You know, it's a robotics company, We build robots, and a lot of times people think of robots is being sort of anti people, but that's, that's actually not true. Um, and, uh, to, you know, put a fine point on it. Our approach has always been that we are building robots to make life better for people here on this planet. Um, and one of the things that Vena Robotics did from day one was pay our employees to spend 10% of their work week doing community service, giving back to the world. And, um, myself and a few of my colleagues at Vena Robotics, uh, identified a need in the industry.
Speaker 0 00:05:35 Um, we felt like there was some real challenges for new startups in robotics. Um, it was, uh, really difficult to be successful as a robotics startup. And so we decided to use our community service hours to found, uh, this organization with the goal of helping to move the industry forward to help, um, uh, startups, uh, have the resources, have the information, um, have access to investors, have access to end customers in, in a way to help them be successful, to, uh, help, um, really foster and educate the next generation of engineering talent through STEM initiatives, and to, um, to help the industry through creation of, uh, of, um, practical interoperability standards. And, uh, I'm really proud of the work that Mass Robotics has done in all of those areas. So for the years, it's had a really big impact, um, really helped the industry to move forward. And, and I'm, I'm excited to say that we're really just getting started.
Speaker 2 00:06:46 So this idea of interoperability is really, really interesting. And so how did we get here?
Speaker 0 00:06:53 Well, you know, it's, um, it's just the normal progression I think, of any industry, any new industry. Uh, it starts out sort of like the wild west, you know, you've got innovative creative people who are saying, Hey, we could do something new. Let's try this. And, uh, you know, most of the time those things fail, but every now and then they're successful. And that spawns, um, you know, can spawn a new industry like the, um, like the modern robotics industry. Um, but you know, early on in those industries, everybody's kind of doing their own thing. And, uh, that's great because that produces a lot of innovation, a lot of new ideas, a lot of exploration of different ways to do things. Uh, but at some point it starts to become a, an impediment to growth of the industry if everybody's doing things their own way.
Speaker 0 00:07:46 So, um, you know, we kind of took a look at some other industries how they had evolved. Uh, and one thing that became very clear was one of the signs of a mature industry is interoperability standards, right? You can't imagine going and buying a cell phone and, uh, these days and not being able to run software from, you know, any number of software developers, right? It, it used to be that your cell phone only ran software from the company that actually built the cell, you know, that was really holding the industry back. And when we start to get this idea of here's an operating system and anyone can write a, anyone can write a really great app for that, anyone can download that app, that's when the industry really exploded. And this is what we're trying to help do for the robotics industry right now in the robotics industry, by and large, you can only run software from the company that actually physically built the robots on those robots. And, um, that is holding the, the industry back. Those robots, uh, typically don't share information with other robots, uh, from other vendors. And so we need to get past all that. And so interoperability is this idea that we need to start sharing information. Um, we need to have robots from company A, be able to share space with, interact with robots from company B. And you can't do that without some kind of standard, some kind of way to communicate. So, so that was kind of the genesis of the initiative.
Speaker 2 00:09:19 Now I think it's very exciting conversation. So how do we fix it? And what are some of the company's motivations? Say, uh, like company B, what, what are some of their motivations?
Speaker 0 00:09:28 Well, it's interesting because when Mass Robotics first started to, uh, socialize the idea of interoperability in the robotics industry, there was actually quite a bit of pushback. Um, and most of that pushback was from robotics companies who, uh, you know, oftentimes I think perhaps naively, and again, this is the same of any industry, they feel like, you know, they've got the best solution in the world and everybody's gonna use their stuff and they're gonna own it all. And, um, it's just not the way mature industries work, right? Um, the, for an industry to be successful, there needs to be many companies supporting that industry, supporting those customers. Customers need to have choices. They need to be able to, um, uh, go out and find the solutions that make the most sense for, for their facilities. Um, but, uh, you know, the early, the early on reaction is, Oh, we don't want interoperability standards because, you know, we'd have to give up some kind of secret sauce, or we'd have to play nicely with our competitors. And, um, you know, we kind of just pushed through that. Uh, it was, um, something where, um, I think once people started to realize that, yeah, Mass Robotics was going to make this happen, and yes, it is good for the industry, um, then I think it switched from a attitude of, um, uh, you know, let's not participate. Um, let's, let's try and, uh, um, you know, impede this from happening to, Wow, we better get on board, or we're gonna miss out.
Speaker 2 00:11:10 Yeah. And that's, uh, that's the interesting part about that some of the cultural motivations in the robotics industry, because you're right, there's people out there going, maybe selling a product that they might not be able to sell in the future because they're now on this new standard. So how does some of the cultural motivations, how does it fit into this, do you think?
Speaker 0 00:11:29 Yeah, you know, uh, and I would say that, um, typically people might think that they might not be able to sell their product in the future because of the standard, but, uh, I'd say in practice that's almost never true. And almost all the time, it actually helps them. Um, you know, there are a number of companies out there that provide middleware. I'm air quoting middleware solutions for robotics, for example. Um, and, you know, they may think, Oh, well, once there's an interoperability standard, then, you know, everybody can just talk directly to each other and they don't need the middleware. And that's actually not true at all. As a matter of fact, when you have a middleware provider that conforms to the standard, they're gonna get a lot of business because, um, there's so many services that need to be provided there in the middle. Um, and, you know, big end users, they, they're not gonna write this software themselves.
Speaker 0 00:12:18 They, they need, uh, a trusted partner to help them with that. The motivations, uh, you know, like in anything are, are evolving pretty quickly, but, um, uh, it all comes down to the end customer, right? The end customer is the one who votes with their pocketbook. Um, they choose, um, uh, whether or not the standard is going to be successful by when they choose a vendor, uh, for a project. One of the things that many, many of them are asking for now is, does your product conform to the mass robotics interoperability standard? And why that's important to us is because, you know, we've already written some, some listeners that, uh, will, um, you know, keep track of where all the robots are for us and, and create a dashboard for us so that we know what's going on. Or, you know, even better, we've got these workflows where we need the robots to be somewhat coordinated, right there. There's a certain amount of floor space in a facility, and if you have a floor cleaning robot, for example, that's trying to clean the floor at the exact same time that the, that the forklift robot needs to get through to deliver a, a critical shipment to, you know, loading dock sea, um, you got problems if none of those systems are able to talk to each other.
Speaker 2 00:13:35 Daniel, have, have you put a cost on this to the industry? Like, this must be a huge cost, the interoperability opportunity cost?
Speaker 0 00:13:44 Well, you know, it's a great question, and we haven't formally done that study, but I mean, I, I would, I would easily estimate that there are billions, um, billions at stake here, because you think about the physical economy and, you know, like I was saying earlier, the entire physical economy is this idea of moving things from point A to point B. You know, you start at a manufacturer, eventually it gets to a customer doorstep. Um, or I should say, you start from raw materials, right? And goes to manufacturer, eventually you get to a customer doorstep, and there's just lots of steps there in between right now as an industry. Um, we do some pretty incredible things, right? I mean, this unrealistic consumer expectation that they should be able to order something online now customized to their, you know, tastes and have it show up on their, you know, on their doorstep within days or even hours sometimes is, is crazy.
Speaker 0 00:14:37 But what we're failing at so far is doing that in a, uh, energy efficient, uh, ecologically, um, sustainable way. We just have lots of, lots of stuff moving around, and so much of it is uncoordinated. You know, here at my farm in San Gregorio, California, I probably get four or five different deliveries a day, oftentimes, um, very, very inefficient, right? Cause we're not that close to anything. So I think there's just massive opportunities for better coordination of the whole supply chain, which will significantly reduce costs, it'll significantly reduce environmental impacts, um, and it will, um, um, make a big difference in cost as well. Um, so, uh, you know, there's just a, a massive opportunity here that just a little bit more information sharing can help to solve. So I'm really excited about that.
Speaker 2 00:15:33 So Daniel, how do you actually do this? Like invent a standard
Speaker 0 00:15:37 <laugh>? You know, that's a, that's a great question because, uh, there's a lot of debate about this. As a matter of fact, one of the big objections early on to the work we were doing at Master Robotics with this standard was that, um, we were trying to do it too fast. Um, you know, the, the standards take years to create, and, um, you know, that has been true traditionally. Um, but what we've seen in engineering, software engineering, even hardware engineering, is the shift towards, uh, process we call agile. Agile is this idea that you are moving much more quickly. Um, it's more of an iterative process. You don't try and, you know, boil the ocean in a sense, but you take a little bite. You, you, you work on that, you make progress on that, you release that, and then you take your next bite rather than trying to have some massive software release.
Speaker 0 00:16:31 Um, and what, what we've found in the engineering world is that just works so much better than, you know, working on one thing for a long, long, long time and then eventually releasing it. So we wanted to bring this idea of rapid iterations of agile to the standards development world. And, and the reason that that's so critical is because technology is changing faster and faster and faster, you know, for, uh, and, uh, and, uh, you know, electrical code, you know, um, two 20 volt power or whatever. Yeah, those things aren't changing as quickly. But when you talk about software and AI and robotics, um, those, those things are changing every day. Uh, the rate of changes so fast that if, if the standard development process is taking years by the time the standard comes out, it's, it's probably essentially completely irrelevant at that point. So we realized it was critical that we supercharge that process, that, that we adopt the same techniques in engineering, that were allowing engineering to be successful for standards development.
Speaker 0 00:17:42 And so we, we just, um, sort of pulled in a group of people from the industry, from a number of different companies, end users and, and robotics, uh, vendors, and, um, got 'em in a room and said, Hey, there's a problem. Here's the challenge. We need to come up with a practical solution, but let's keep it simple. Let's not try and think of every possible, you know, problem or application. Let's not try and solve everything right now. Let's just focus on one very concrete thing that we can do to help the industry move forward. Let's get that done very quickly and get it out there, and then we'll get this feedback loop going. And so that's what we did. And, um, and, uh, it seems to be working very well.
Speaker 2 00:18:30 Daniel, thanks for joining me for this really fascinating conversation. Is there anything that we've forgotten to talk about, uh, yet today?
Speaker 0 00:18:37 Well, you know, I think the only other thing I'd mention is that, um, this is a community effort and, uh, everybody can contribute. So if you have any interest in, in helping the robotics industry move forward, um, if you have any interest in, in helping to develop this next generation of standards for robotics that are obviously gonna have an big impact on our society, please get involved. Reach out to me. Um, I'm easily contactable through LinkedIn, or, uh, you can contact me
[email protected]. Um, we'd love to get you involved. Uh, every, everyone is welcome to contribute and, and we appreciate everyone who helps.
Speaker 2 00:19:19 And, uh, when you're not, uh, rewriting standards and selling, uh, forklift robots, what do you like to do
Speaker 0 00:19:26 <laugh>? Uh, well, you know, um, I have a number of different, um, uh, projects where we are trying to help, uh, different industries move forward with robotics. So, um, out here at my farm research farm in San Gregorio, we're actually releasing an open source farming robot, uh, free for anyone to download plans and build their own. Um, we're hoping that that can help, uh, farmers around the world be able to grow healthy food locally, um, in, in a cost effective way. Um, also, uh, just, uh, started a consulting company called mebo.com, which is all about helping, um, large end users of, uh, automation or those who need automation, sort of navigate this crazy complex world of, um, mechanization and automation and, you know, try and figure out how to, uh, um, chart the best path for their particular organization.
Speaker 2 00:20:22 Thank you. And I'll, I'll put these, uh, um, websites and such in the show notes, so if you're listening and you're out jogging or whatever, uh, we'll put them in the show notes so you can, uh, get them. Again, thank you so much for spending some time and I'd, I'd like to connect up again and we can talk more about Mass Robotics and some of the other projects that you're into.
Speaker 0 00:20:40 Sounds great. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.
Speaker 2 00:20:43 Our sponsor for this episode is Earhart Automation Systems. Earhart builds and commissions turnkey solutions for their worldwide clients. With over 80 years of precision manufacturing. They understand the complex world of robotics, automated manufacturing and project management, delivering world class custom automation on time and on budget. Contact one of their sales engineers to see what Earhart can build for you. And Earhart is E H R H A R D T and i'd I thank a three. They're the Association for Advancing Automation. They are the leading automation trade association for robotics, vision and imaging motion control and motors, and the industrial artificial intelligent technologies. Visit automate.org to learn more. And I'd like to thank our partner Painted Robot. Painted robot builds and integrates digital solutions. They're a web development firm that offers seo, digital social marketing, and can set up and connect CRM and other e r p tools to unify marketing, sales, and operations. And you can find
[email protected]. And if you'd like to get in touch with us at the Robot Industry Podcast, you can find me, Jim Beretta on LinkedIn. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening. Be safe out there. Today's podcast was produced by Customer Traction Industrial Marketing, and I'd like to recognize my nephew, Chris Gray, for the music, Jeffrey for audio production. My partner Janet and our partner's, a three painted robot and our sponsor, Earhart Automation Systems.
